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#23023: "Option to use "corrected" cards from expansion"
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The Saint Petersburg expansion re-balanced some of the base game cards and it would be awesome to have a game option to use those versions of the cards as an alternate, they really do improve the game balance. They are: Czar & Carpenter cost 3, produces 2 rubles; Observatory cost 8; Academy cost 25, produces 9 points; Mistress of Ceremonies cost 18, produces 3 rubles and 4 points; Mariinski Theatre cost 20, produces 1 point per aristocrat (instead of rubles)• Koјi је tvoј prеtraživač?
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7. ruj 2020. 13:02 • Tikhonov • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
+1 Especially the Mistress of Ceremonies is way to overpowered when bought in the first aristocrat phase.. In my opinion the expansion cards should also be standard in the arena mode (as soon as it is launched)
7. ruj 2020. 22:41 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
I own both English print editions and most expansions, and be careful, this gets extremely confusing.
First, some cards were straight out revised in the second edition. For example the Judge cost was increased from 16 to 17 (for same stats). Observatory might have become 7. I could look up what else they did.
But *then*, there is separately an expansion that has you make the 7 card replacements detailed above. However, that is done at the same time as you are also adding a bunch of other expansion cards (including a third Judge), AND modifying a critical game rule (extra distinct nobles after 10 are +10 points). It's not clear that these 7 replacement cards were ever designed to be used for pure replacement only without the other changes.
First, some cards were straight out revised in the second edition. For example the Judge cost was increased from 16 to 17 (for same stats). Observatory might have become 7. I could look up what else they did.
But *then*, there is separately an expansion that has you make the 7 card replacements detailed above. However, that is done at the same time as you are also adding a bunch of other expansion cards (including a third Judge), AND modifying a critical game rule (extra distinct nobles after 10 are +10 points). It's not clear that these 7 replacement cards were ever designed to be used for pure replacement only without the other changes.
7. ruj 2020. 22:44 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
And for the record, I definitely agree that the original Mistress is broken. However, I would still consider just picking one version of these cards and sticking with that, rather than making it an option. Options are such a drag when you're catching up on multiple turn-based games and each of them is using slightly different rules.
7. ruj 2020. 22:54 • Marcuda • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
Please help me understand. Is the request to implement the New Society expansion with both new and updated cards? Or only to include the modified base cards from that expansion? Or both as options?
Beyond knowing they exist I am not familiar with the expansions. I am happy to implement what players want, given time and publisher permission...
Beyond knowing they exist I am not familiar with the expansions. I am happy to implement what players want, given time and publisher permission...
11. ruj 2020. 17:22 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
I would suggest interpreting this request as being not about any expansion, only about deciding which *versions* of the cards already present in the base game are offered.
My recommendation would be to just go with the 2nd edition without an option. Reason: this is how the designer/publisher is selling the game today.
I have all versions of the game and all versions of all the expansions. I've started a spreadsheet to try to make sense of all the different cards in all their different versions:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qDbSJ6PaFZ2fot57n451ruSB8nLpmYvHEZ6Xe6Dg8DQ/edit?usp=sharing
My recommendation would be to just go with the 2nd edition without an option. Reason: this is how the designer/publisher is selling the game today.
I have all versions of the game and all versions of all the expansions. I've started a spreadsheet to try to make sense of all the different cards in all their different versions:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qDbSJ6PaFZ2fot57n451ruSB8nLpmYvHEZ6Xe6Dg8DQ/edit?usp=sharing
17. ruj 2020. 11:52 • Tikhonov • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
To ensure that everyone can follow the discussion: There are two different versions of Saint Petersburg available, the first edition (currently on BGA) and the second edition (with some slightly changed base cards, new artwork, market expansion, and 6 additional modules).
I think the initial suggestion was to add the available expansions to the FIRST edition of Saint Petersburg, especially the "New Society" expansion. In addition to some completely new cards, in this expansion the following cards from the base version are replaced:
Tzar and Carpenter: cost 8, 3R income => cost 3, 2R income
Observatory (2): cost 6 => cost 8
Academy: cost 23, 7VP income => cost 25, 9VP income
Mistress of Ceremonies (2): 6R + 3VP income => 3R + 4VP income
Mariinskij Theater: cost 10, 1R per Aristocrat income => cost 20, 1VP per Aristocrat income
Furthermore, you now get 10 additional victory points at the end of the game for every unique aristocrat over the tenth and the maximum number of players is increased to 5.
As the rule book states that you can play just with a couple of cards from the expansion, I would suggest adding an option like "rebalanced cards" that replaces all cards as explained above, if someone does not want to play with all of the new expansion cards/features. This option could also be used for the arena mode for example.
The second expansion for the first version is "Banquet", that introduces a new trading card (Tzar - Suprstar [what a silly name tbh]), two additonal Potjemkin's villages (1/4 and 3/8) together with 9 violet special cards.
Here is an overview: cf.geekdo-images.com/imagepagezoom/img/V64MAdlSLpqn7YMmAaKffZaH8rM=/fit-in/1200x900/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic2372091.jpg
I would not mix the first version with the second version on BGA like in the spreadsheet. Either you add an option to switch between the two versions (similar to 7 Wonders) or you replace the first version with the second. I would prefer the first solution :)
I think the initial suggestion was to add the available expansions to the FIRST edition of Saint Petersburg, especially the "New Society" expansion. In addition to some completely new cards, in this expansion the following cards from the base version are replaced:
Tzar and Carpenter: cost 8, 3R income => cost 3, 2R income
Observatory (2): cost 6 => cost 8
Academy: cost 23, 7VP income => cost 25, 9VP income
Mistress of Ceremonies (2): 6R + 3VP income => 3R + 4VP income
Mariinskij Theater: cost 10, 1R per Aristocrat income => cost 20, 1VP per Aristocrat income
Furthermore, you now get 10 additional victory points at the end of the game for every unique aristocrat over the tenth and the maximum number of players is increased to 5.
As the rule book states that you can play just with a couple of cards from the expansion, I would suggest adding an option like "rebalanced cards" that replaces all cards as explained above, if someone does not want to play with all of the new expansion cards/features. This option could also be used for the arena mode for example.
The second expansion for the first version is "Banquet", that introduces a new trading card (Tzar - Suprstar [what a silly name tbh]), two additonal Potjemkin's villages (1/4 and 3/8) together with 9 violet special cards.
Here is an overview: cf.geekdo-images.com/imagepagezoom/img/V64MAdlSLpqn7YMmAaKffZaH8rM=/fit-in/1200x900/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic2372091.jpg
I would not mix the first version with the second version on BGA like in the spreadsheet. Either you add an option to switch between the two versions (similar to 7 Wonders) or you replace the first version with the second. I would prefer the first solution :)
17. ruj 2020. 11:59 • Tikhonov • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
Finally, I found the English rulebook for the expansions. It might help the developer to implement them, if he decides to do so :) world-of-board-games.com.sg/docs/StPetersburgExp.pdf
17. ruj 2020. 22:47 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
My concern is that this issue is already highly confusing even without discussing actual expansions. I will go ahead and file separate a separate issue about New Society.
17. ruj 2020. 23:36 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
All right, filed
In Good Company boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24937
The New Society boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24939
The Banquet boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24941
... just so that there is a proper place to discuss/track each of these less confusingly. Not trying to seem greedy, Marcuda :-)
In Good Company boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24937
The New Society boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24939
The Banquet boardgamearena.com/bug?id=24941
... just so that there is a proper place to discuss/track each of these less confusingly. Not trying to seem greedy, Marcuda :-)
18. ruj 2020. 4:43 • Marcuda • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
Oy! I started this game because it looked simple! Little did I know... I'd love to support them all but make no promises :)
18. ruj 2020. 21:02 • SamHellerman • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
Well hey, if no one votes for those other issues, then nothing to worry! :-)
This issue just needs a decision of what to do for the base-set cards
a) Keep the first edition versions
b) Use the second edition cost-nerfs for Obs/Judge/Mistress
c) Use the 7 "new society" replacements and first edition Judge cost (16)
d) Use the 7 "new society" replacements and second edition Judge cost (17)
e) Give the option between some two of the above (but I beg please, only two :-))
(note: IF later the New Society expansion is ever offered, then (c) and (d) have the advantage that nothing else will need to change, it will simply add more cards, which is easy for users to understand.)
Having thought more about this I'm revising my own stance (for whatever it's worth). I feel pretty convinced that ALL the modifications have served to make the game better -- so option (d).
I can see the argument for offering an option between (a) and (d): simply the fact that most users are *accustomed* to (a). But those cards really were pretty broken. And yknow... nerfs are a fact of life in online gaming.
The problem with an option is that it's so weird going between multiple turn-based games that all use different rules. For that reason I tend not to join other people's tables and always create tables of my own, so I can have consistency.
This issue just needs a decision of what to do for the base-set cards
a) Keep the first edition versions
b) Use the second edition cost-nerfs for Obs/Judge/Mistress
c) Use the 7 "new society" replacements and first edition Judge cost (16)
d) Use the 7 "new society" replacements and second edition Judge cost (17)
e) Give the option between some two of the above (but I beg please, only two :-))
(note: IF later the New Society expansion is ever offered, then (c) and (d) have the advantage that nothing else will need to change, it will simply add more cards, which is easy for users to understand.)
Having thought more about this I'm revising my own stance (for whatever it's worth). I feel pretty convinced that ALL the modifications have served to make the game better -- so option (d).
I can see the argument for offering an option between (a) and (d): simply the fact that most users are *accustomed* to (a). But those cards really were pretty broken. And yknow... nerfs are a fact of life in online gaming.
The problem with an option is that it's so weird going between multiple turn-based games that all use different rules. For that reason I tend not to join other people's tables and always create tables of my own, so I can have consistency.
7. lis 2020. 19:30 • Supergravity • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
I comment about the 2nd Sam Hellerman note: The original mistress is only "broken" if bought on round 1. In round 2, the net cost of 12 rubles on the crucial round where lots of workers will come out makes her not so great; later she is still good but not a sure-win advantage.
There is now a suggestion for an option to forbid buying her (but not forbid taking her into hand) on round 1.
There is now a suggestion for an option to forbid buying her (but not forbid taking her into hand) on round 1.
9. lis 2020. 15:59 • forgetter903 • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
I support to the d) because the Mistress (and the Judge in some cases) will make "obvious" difference on Round 1 or 2 as Supertravity says.
When other players accept the Judge with 16R, c) is also acceptable.
Because his power is a smaller than the Mistress.
When other players accept the Judge with 16R, c) is also acceptable.
Because his power is a smaller than the Mistress.
6. velj 2021. 8:47 • Inaofr • Dеvеlopеri јoš uvеk nisu analizirali ovaј prеdlog:
2nd edition (basic game only) is now available.
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